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Trevor Loudon Replies to Russel Norman

Submitted by on February 6, 2006 – 2:31 am EST29 Comments

While Russel Norman has yet to satisfactorily reply to my questions to him, there has been interest expressed on this and other Blogs, in my answers to questions posed by Russel to me.

To remove any impediment to Russel clarifying the answers to my questions, I will now answer his questions to me.

I hope you can all follow that.

Russel; Have you ever been a member of, or associated with, ZAP – Zenith Applied Philosophy? What was your involvement?

Trevor; My involvement as a student of Christchurch based self improvement organisation, Zenith Applied Philosophy has always been public knowledge and has been published in an interview I did in 1986, with the old Star Sports. I have studied at Z.A.P. from 1976 to 1982, 1986/7 and 1999 to current. I am enjoying my studies immensely at the moment and plan to continue indefinitely.

Russel; Were you aware of the association between ZAP and the fascist Nationalist Workers Party?

Trevor; No Russel and neither are you. There never have been any such links. I am willing to bet my membership and position in ACT against your membership and position in the Green Party, that you have no credible proof of such allegations. I suggest that if you have no proof, you withdraw your question on this subject from your Frogblog post now and post a statement confirming that you were merely “flying a kite” or were misinformed.

Russel; When did you last have contact with the people associated with ZAP?

Trevor: About 20 minutes ago. Contact is regular, ongoing and enjoyable and involves a wide range of activity.

Russel; Do you think that fascism had something positive to offer the world?

Trevor No Russel I do not. My political path began as an 18 year old in January 1976, when I purchased, for $1.40, a copy of Ayn Rand’s “For the New Intellectual” from Summer’s second hand book shop in Tuam Street, Christchurch. I have never wavered from my belief in small government and free people since. In earlier times I was more conservative (I long believed the state should suppress the drug trade for instance), but now I count myself as a libertarian.

Fascism is the system whereby the state allows nominal ownership of private property, but can dictate how that property may be used. The Resource Mangement Act is a good example of fascist legislation. Fascism is often also characterised by a strong relationship between the state and big business,(Nazi Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, present day China) which is maybe why some people confuse fascism with capitalism, when it is actually a form of socialism. I am a laissez faire capitalist. I am an advocate of the separation of business and state and always have been.

Russel: Do you believe that the holocaust happened?


Russel; Is your blog New Zeal, named after the magazine of the same name published in the late 1980s by the Campaign for a Soviet Free New Zealand? What was your invovlement in the New Zeal magazine?

Trevor; Yes it is. I wrote it.

Russel; Did you agree with the New Zeal editorial of April 1989 connecting Ron Trotter, the Todds and the Business Roundtable with pro-Soviet and pro-Stalinist activities such as leading business delegations to the USSR, and having other business connections such as selling “Stalinist” oil? Do you still think that the Business Roundtable is a communist front group?

Trevor; I re read this issue with some embarrassment. On one side, I viewed anyone who encouraged NZ/Soviet trade as morally reprehensible and at best irresponsible from a strategic point of view. I hold similar views about those who advocate trade with China today and believe we should cut trade ties to that country until it becomes a civilised nation. I believed then and I believe now, that certain members of the BRT deserved strong condemnation for participating in NZ/Soviet trade.

On the BRT article. That was a clearly stated as a reprint from an American newsletter. However I did endorse it and am ashamed of doing so. Roger Kerr wrote a very balanced reply to the article and I wrote a snarky rejoinder. I have met Roger at two ACT conferences since then and have always cringed in fear that he might make the connection. Now that you’ve “outed” me, I’ll apologise next time I see him. Thanks, you’ve done me a favour there.

Russel; Did you agree with the July 1989 edition of New Zeal when it accused the Young Nats of being “Marxianised”, because they were addressed by a member of the NZ Planning Council?

Trevor; Sorry,I can’t find that particular issue. The NZ Planning Council was infiltrated to some degree by socialists, including at one point by a covert member of the pro Soviet, Socialist Unity Party. What I may have been getting at, is that the very idea of a Planning Council is socialist, or “Marxist” in itself. The whole idea of state economic planning is an anathema to me, as it would have been to the original founders of the National Party. So I guess i was annoyed that the Young Nats would have anything to do with such a nonsensical organisation.

Russel; Do you still believe that being a member of the NZ Planning Council makes one a Marxist, and if so does that mean that Don Brash is a closet marxist because he was a member of the Planning Council?

Trevor; To extrapolate my disdain for the organisation and my awareness that there were Marxists on the staff, to the allegation that I believed “that being a member of the NZ Planning Council makes one a Marxist” is faulty logic.

Russel; If Ron Trotter, Don Brash, the Todds and the Business Roundtable are all part of the communist conspiracy, then what the hell planet are you on?

Trevor; If reading the material I have to hand, leads you to believe I held such views, I suggest you would have been better to have studied logic at university rather than politics.

I hope you find my answers satisfactory Russel. I await your clarification of my earlier questions. I’m particularly interested in your awareness of Jeanette Fitzsimons and Keith Locke’s connections to your former Marxist-Leninist colleagues in the Democratic Socialist Party.

To refresh your memory, I will devote the next few posts to examining those links. Some will be a rehash of previous material, but I will try to present some new details. I will also have some questions for your colleagues which I hope you will be good enough to pass on.

Thanking you in anticipation

Trevor Loudon


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